{"id":14733,"date":"2014-10-16T02:03:06","date_gmt":"2014-10-16T02:03:06","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/usa\/?p=933"},"modified":"2014-10-16T02:03:06","modified_gmt":"2014-10-16T02:03:06","slug":"the-end-of-palestine-interview-with-norman-finkelstein","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/the-end-of-palestine-interview-with-norman-finkelstein\/","title":{"rendered":"The End of Palestine ? Interview with Norman Finkelstein"},"content":{"rendered":"

You\u2019ve been\u00a0<\/em>warning for some time now<\/em><\/a>\u00a0that the Israeli-Palestinian talks being brokered by Secretary of State Kerry might, unlike many prior rounds of negotiations, actually produce a deal to end the conflict. Its content would amount to Israel\u2019s long-standing terms of settlement. What\u2019s your assessment of where the diplomatic process is currently at?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

A \u201cframework agreement\u201d will shortly be reached, and a final settlement will probably be signed in the last six months or so of President Obama\u2019s term in office. When the Kerry process was first announced I was virtually alone in\u00a0predicting<\/a>\u00a0that it would actually go somewhere; now, it\u2019s widely assumed. Many respected Israeli commentators now take for granted that an agreement is just a matter of time.<\/p>\n

In recent weeks the Kerry talks have apparently focused on Israel\u2019s demands for (i) an enduring military presence in the Jordan Valley and (ii) Palestinian recognition of it as a \u201cJewish state.\u201d The Palestinians will negotiate some face-saving deal on the Jordan Valley involving a US-Israeli joint presence for a period of time. The Jordan Valley was already essentially resolved at the Annapolis negotiations in 2008. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu is raising it now only so he can later claim to be making a \u201cheart-wrenching concession\u201d\u2014Israel is adept at \u201cconceding\u201d things to which it has no title in the first place\u2014by allowing for only a temporary US-Israeli presence along the border. It\u2019s been received wisdom for years\u2014even pro-Israel hack Dennis Ross concedes it in\u00a0The Missing Peace<\/em>\u2014that the Jordan Valley has no strategic value.<\/p>\n

On the \u201cJewish state,\u201d the agreement will probably resolve on the formula:\u00a0Israel as the state of the Jewish people and its citizens, Palestine as the state of the Palestinian people and its citizens.<\/em>\u00a0It will afford (legal) protection for Israel\u2019s Palestinian citizens, but will negate the right of return for Palestinian refugees, which is what Israel really cares about. Palestinian President Abbas can then claim it as a victory because he secured the rights of Palestinians in Israel.<\/p>\n

The whole thing is diabolical. The Israelis\u2014with, of course, active and critical US connivance\u2014have managed to completely shift the debate and shape the agenda. The only issues now being discussed are the\u00a0Jewish state<\/em>\u00a0and the\u00a0Jordan Valley<\/em>, which, in terms of the international consensus for resolving the conflict, never figured at all. (Even in prior bilateral negotiations presided over by the US, such as at Annapolis, these were at most peripheral issues.) The key issue (apart from the refugees), in terms of the international consensus and in prior bilateral negotiations, has been the extent of the land swap along the border:\u00a0Will Israel be allowed to annex the major settlement blocs and consequently abort a Palestinian state?<\/em>\u00a0But the debate has completely shifted, because annexing the settlement blocs is a done deal.<\/p>\n

The framework agreement will probably just speak of land swaps in terms of percentages, and merely insinuate\u2014as the Clinton Parameters did\u2014Israel\u2019s annexation of the major settlement blocs without divulging the precise details. But it is striking that in all of the discussion over the last several weeks,\u00a0Ma\u2019ale Adumim<\/em>\u2014i.e., the largest settlement bloc that effectively bisects the West Bank\u2014has never even come up. Because it\u2019s already been resolved,\u00a0in Israel\u2019s favour<\/em>.<\/p>\n

And a final deal will follow?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

A lot of politicking still has to be done, a lot of marketing, a lot of hysteria in Israel\u2014its usual, Oscar-winning performance. It will take the full three years that remain of Obama\u2019s presidency, climaxing in a Camp David-like summit (Obama also loves drama, speechifying is his forte and he\u2019s probably already contemplating which hip black leather jacket to wear), before the final deal is sealed.<\/p>\n

One of the principal obstacles at this point to reaching an agreement, in my opinion, is not the details, because those are basically known: the annexation of the settlement blocs by Israel and the annulment of the right of return. One of the big stumbling blocks, oddly enough, is\u00a0inertia<\/em>.<\/p>\n

If you date the\u00a0political<\/em>\u00a0origin of the conflict back to the 1917 Balfour Declaration (before then Zionism was basically a self-help operation), you\u2019re talking about a century-long conflict. When a conflict endures for such a protracted period of time, huge numbers of individuals and institutions develop a vested interest not in its resolution but instead in its perpetuation; what\u2019s now called, only half-facetiously, the Peace Industry. Many are now consumed by the dreadful prospect that after a full century, it might actually end. It does send shivers down the spine:\u00a0the Israel-Palestine conflict might be over<\/em>. All those UN special sessions and special committees; all those Ramallah-based NGOs, Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations, and conflict-resolution getaways; all those IMF, World Bank, Crisis Group reports; all those academic programs\u2014Israel Studies, Holocaust Studies\u2014which sprung up to justify Israeli policy (none can lay a claim to intellectual content, and most have been subsidized by wealthy right-wing Jews); all those film festivals, scholarly studies, memoirs and \u201cpoetry\u201d; all those Washington-based Israel \u201cthink\u201d-tanks; all those Palestine solidarity activists, groups, websites, researchers, and analysts (present company included)\u2026. A huge, sprawling superstructure has been built on the Israel-Palestine conflict, and consequently a major obstacle to an agreement is now the fear and trembling across the political divide that it might actually be coming to a denouement. It\u2019s not quite conceivable, is it?<\/p>\n

But presumably inertia on its own can merely delay; it can\u2019t prevent.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

I agree.<\/strong><\/p>\n

What is Kerry doing to shore up support for an agreement?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

As Palestinian political analyst (and my co-author) Mouin Rabbani has observed, the big difference between President Clinton and Secretary of State Kerry is that Clinton ignored everyone outside the United States; he imagined that he alone, without any external assistance, could be the kingmaker. Kerry, on the other hand, has in a very deliberate fashion set about lining up all the ducks. The Saudis, Arab League, European Union\u2014the Palestinians are being surrounded and besieged. So are the Israelis, but to a much lesser extent because it\u2019s essentially Israel\u2019s terms of settlement that are being imposed.<\/p>\n

The Europeans in particular are turning the screws. Every day there\u2019s another report of an individual or collective European initiative severing ties with Israeli entities linked to the illegal settlements. My guess is, the threats currently emanating from Europe are being coordinated with Kerry, in order to convey, not so much to the Israeli government (for all his emoting, Netanyahu is on board), but to Israeli holdouts, that the settlement project\u00a0outside<\/em>\u00a0the Wall has no future prospects. Within Israeli politics, those supporting the Kerry process\u2014here\u2019s an irony worth savouring!\u2014have exploited the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement to the same end: \u201cIf we don\u2019t settle now, BDS is just around the corner.\u201d<\/p>\n

And the various Arab states?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

The Palestine issue has, at least, temporarily, died as a mobilising factor in the Arab-Muslim world. It\u2019s fairly easy now for the US to get Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, and Iran either on board or to set Palestine aside. Iran hasn\u2019t said anything about the Kerry negotiations so far, and probably doesn\u2019t much care. Syria is a null factor. Egypt is playing a positively nefarious role, as it tries (in cahoots with the US, Israel and the Palestinian Authority) to depose Hamas by tormenting Gazans. Saudi Arabia figures that by playing ball with the US on Palestine it can score points with the US on Syria-Iran. Turkey has its own agenda that for a while did (e.g., at the time of the\u00a0Mavi Marmara<\/em>), but no longer does, include Palestine. It is preoccupied by Erdogan\u2019s blunder on Syria and his fear that, in the event of an American rapprochement with Iran, Turkey will drop a notch on the regional totem pole, whereas he has harboured visions of a reborn Ottoman Empire.<\/p>\n

The Palestine issue had political resonance in the Arab-Muslim world mostly because it was popular on the so-called street. But people don\u2019t much care now. They\u2019re focused, rightly or wrongly, on other tragedies, such as Syria. In places like Libya, where people used to give at least lip-service to Palestine, they obviously have other things on their minds right now. Kerry is no genius, but certainly he shrewdly assessed the lay of the land when he concluded that now was the perfect moment to impose a settlement on the Palestinians.<\/p>\n

It has been interesting to see everyone wooing Israel\u2019s foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman. Suddenly he\u2019s the toast of the town in Washington, the British foreign minister is meeting with him, etc.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

It cuts both ways, because Lieberman wants to be Israel\u2019s next prime minister. So it\u2019s time to shed the nightclub bouncer persona (the\u00a0New York Times\u00a0<\/em>recently reported that Lieberman reads weighty tomes on history; sure, and on weekends I do pirouettes in the Bolshoi\u2026) and to don the persona of a Responsible Statesman. So, he\u2019ll go along with a Kerry agreement. He\u2019s already signalled his acquiescence, even enthusiasm, this past week. He\u2019s also been muttering about transferring Israel\u2019s Palestinian citizens to a new Palestinian state, but that won\u2019t go anywhere. It would violate basic norms of international law by sanctioning the right of established states to redraw internal borders in order to denationalize unwanted minorities. Nobody\u2019s going to buy that.<\/p>\n

How serious are\u00a0<\/em>recent moves<\/em><\/a>\u00a0by Hamas and Fatah towards reconciliation?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

One possibility is that the Palestinian Authority is playing a silly game of threatening the United States and Israel, \u201cIf you aren\u2019t more forthcoming, we\u2019re going to reconcile with Hamas and won\u2019t deal with you anymore.\u201d The second possibility is that Hamas wants a piece of the pie, and so will form a National Unity government that will guarantee it something in the final agreement. The third and, according to Mouin, most plausible possibility is that Abbas wants to neutralise Hamas by bringing it on board, thereby also reviving his claims to represent all Palestinians, while Hamas supports a reconciliation to bring it out of the cold after the disastrous developments in Egypt.<\/p>\n

How binding will a framework agreement be upon future negotiations?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Nothing is inexorable, but there will be a lot of momentum behind it. The juggernaut will be hard to stop. For all the pieces to fall into place, a new Israeli coalition will probably have to form, a government of National Unity led by Netanyahu. Israeli public opinion polls show that a majority of Israelis would support the probable Kerry proposal. Hebron will have to be evacuated. Of course, there will be the usual Israeli anguish, but it won\u2019t be difficult to pull off. The IDF can just march out, and say to the four hundred\u00a0meschugge<\/em>\u00a0Jewish settlers, \u201cYou want to stay? You can stay\u201d\u2014alone<\/em>, amidst the 150,000 Muslim Hebronites.<\/p>\n

Does the Palestinian leadership have the capacity to resist?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

I can\u2019t, for the life of me, see how the Palestinians can extricate themselves at this point. There\u2019s such a broad array of political forces ranged behind the Kerry process that the Palestinians are trapped. Abbas and his imbecile sidekick Saeb Erekat are playing good cop\/bad cop. Abbas says \u201cyes, this agreement might work,\u201d whereas Erekat whispers to the media\u2014you know, the \u201csenior Palestinian negotiator who doesn\u2019t want to be identified\u201d\u2014that \u201coh, this agreement is horrible, it\u2019s terrible, it\u2019s awful, they can shove it.\u201d Erekat thinks that\u2019s being clever, it\u2019s putting pressure on the Americans, as if anyone on god\u2019s earth gives a flying fig what Erekat has to say about anything.<\/p>\n

The Palestinians are cornered, they\u2019re isolated. When you\u2019re in such desperate straits, of course, you must play your strongest cards. A real leadership would, first of all, level with the Palestinian people, \u201cWe\u2019re in a bind, we\u2019re being steamrollered, stampeded. We need you, we need to draw on all our collective resources and reserves to resist\u201d; and second, it would call on Palestine\u2019s supporters abroad, \u201cWe\u2019re about to be clobbered, we need your help.\u201d I can\u2019t say it would turn the tide, though, as you know, the Palestinian cause has sufficient resonance abroad that if Palestinians were to say, \u201cWe\u2019re facing the moment of truth now, we might be extinguished,\u201d it could perhaps, in conjunction with a mass civil revolt among the Palestinians themselves, do something. It could become a factor.<\/p>\n

But the Palestinian leadership is irredeemably corrupt, incompetent and stupid (petty and megalomaniacal, Abbas lost interest in Palestine long ago\u2014he just wants the Nobel), while Palestine\u2019s supporters abroad are, to put it politely, not acting smartly. They think the big issue now is the American Studies Association vote for an academic boycott of Israel and debating the virtues of academic freedom at a Modern Languages Association conference. (Watch what happens if and when BDS supporters try to introduce the academic boycott in a solid, established academic discipline such as History, Philosophy, or any of the Natural Sciences, where, among many other factors, Jews figure prominently. It won\u2019t be a pretty sight.) But that\u2019s the state of Palestine solidarity right now. They carry on as if the Kerry process is a meaningless sideshow, something that can be safely ignored. But it\u2019s a very big difference,\u00a0as Mouin and I have pointed out<\/a>, whether the Wall is illegal or whether it is a legal border. Why? It would turn what are currently illegal Jewish settlements into ordinary Israeli towns; Israel could legally confiscate Palestinian land and evict Palestinians from their homes. In India or China, when the government wants to build a big hydroelectric dam, it removes 100,000 people in one fell swoop. They expel masses of people from their homes, and the international community sits by mute. It\u2019s the sovereign right of a country\u2014it\u2019s\u00a0eminent domain<\/em>.<\/p>\n

The moment the Wall is re-baptized a border, the settlements behind it become a dead issue. They\u2019re Israel\u2019s sovereign territory. And of course most of the world will be glad to be rid of the Israel-Palestine conflict. They\u2019ll be happy when the dotted line is signed. What are you going to do then? An American Studies Association boycott of The World?<\/p>\n

Once the framework agreement is signed, won\u2019t it still be very difficult to implement? For example, for Abbas to agree to a formula that effectively nullifies the refugee question\u2014that will be an extremely hard sell among Palestinians.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

What can the Palestinians do? Israel just wants the refugee question excised from the international agenda; it wants a document stipulating, \u201cThat\u2019s no longer Israel\u2019s responsibility.\u201d If Kerry succeeds, they\u2019ll get it. Especially if they get \u201cIsrael as a Jewish state plus its citizens\u201d in the framework agreement, which nullifies the refugee question. How can the Palestinians stop it? They\u2019re totally in thrall to European and American money right now. Yasser Arafat signed the 1993 Oslo agreement because the PLO was financially strapped after he aligned with Saddam Hussein during the First Gulf War. (The Gulf states retaliated by cutting off their subsidies to the PLO.) It was either agreeing to Oslo or\u2014as it was put back then\u2014\u201cbye, bye PLO.\u201d History is now repeating itself. He who pays the piper calls the tune.<\/p>\n

At the popular level, though, Palestinians have influence over their own leadership.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

The Palestinians have no leverage over the Palestinian Authority. The people are politically inert while the Palestinian police are quite effective now at quashing isolated dissent. It\u2019s possible that Abbas will get a bullet in his head, which would probably slow things down because there\u2019s no obvious immediate successor. But setting that possibility aside, I don\u2019t see where Palestinians can exercise leverage. It\u2019s not as if the refugees in Lebanon or Jordan can do very much. They haven\u2019t been able to effect anything since Oslo, except languish in the camps.<\/p>\n

What about Palestinians in the occupied territories? They won\u2019t stand for a renunciation of the right of return.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

This scenario is more romantic theory than current reality. The place is hopelessly fragmented. Gaza itself is alien to the West Bank now. What did the West Bankers do when Gazans were being massacred in 2008-09? Were there large demonstrations? We have to be realistic about the current situation. There\u2019s noconcerted<\/em>\u00a0will among Palestinians. They\u2019re real, living\u00a0persons<\/em>, not a myth. Right now, the people\u2019s spirits are shattered. Of course, a little spark can change things. I noticed a\u00a0Haaretz<\/em>\u00a0article by Amira Hass some weeks back hinting at the possibility that a real popular resistance might yet emerge. It\u2019s pointless speculating but, as of now, there aren\u2019t visible signs that Palestinians are ready, able or willing to resist an imposed solution. Quite the contrary, if the final agreement is sufficiently nebulous to the untutored eye (like the 1993 Oslo agreement), and is sweetened with a huge \u201caid\u201d package, Palestinians might, however reluctantly, go for it. The US\/EU will have three years to soften the Palestinians, turning tight the economic screws, but not so tight as to cause the whole edifice to snap.<\/p>\n

If a final agreement on Israel\u2019s terms is signed, how big a set-back will it be for the struggle for Palestinian self-determination?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

It would be almost irreversible. Many activists don\u2019t want to acknowledge it, but these sorts of agreements and codifications can have real consequences. Didn\u2019t the 1947 Partition Resolution, backed by Israeli wherewithal and will, already prove the point? There\u2019s no obvious reason why you can\u2019t have an agreement whereby a new border is drawn between Israel and the Palestinian territories, especially if such an agreement is ratified by the UN Security Council, which it almost certainly will be. Israel has the wherewithal and will to make that new border stick. Indeed, it alreadyis<\/em>\u00a0a fact, except juridically. A political settlement would crown the already existing facts on the ground with the jewel of legality. It is a significant step, turning an illegal wall into a permanent, internationally recognized border; and it\u2019s not beyond Israel\u2019s reach. From then on, what claim will the Palestinians have beyond that border? None.<\/p>\n

In your forthcoming book with Mouin, you recommend steps that Palestinians, solidarity activists and others should take to solve the Israel-Palestine conflict in a just and durable way. Will those steps, then, have to happen within the next three years? After that, will it be too late?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

For anything to happen, it must begin among the Palestinians in the occupied territories. That would command international attention\u2014though again, we have to be realistic about the political lay of the land right now. World attention is focused on Syria and Iran. There\u2019s going to be the meeting in Geneva. It will be very hard for Palestinians to seize the political spotlight at this point. But that\u2019s the only thing that can stop or slow down the juggernaut. Everything else is meaningless, it\u2019s Nero fiddling while Rome burns.<\/p>\n

Jamie Stern-Weiner\u00a0<\/strong>co-edits New Left Project<\/em><\/p>\n

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You\u2019ve been\u00a0warning for some time now\u00a0that the Israeli-Palestinian talks being brokered by Secretary of State Kerry might, unlike many prior rounds of negotiations, actually produce a deal to end the conflict. Its content would amount to Israel\u2019s long-standing terms of settlement. What\u2019s your assessment of where the diplomatic process is currently at? A \u201cframework agreement\u201d […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":934,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"tdm_status":"","tdm_grid_status":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[20,22],"tags":[],"class_list":{"0":"post-14733","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","7":"category-moyen-orient","8":"category-palestine"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14733","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=14733"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14733\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=14733"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=14733"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/algerienetwork.com\/international\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=14733"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}